Wendy VanderWal Martin: Welcome to a new episode of Henri’s Bookshelf podcast, produced by the Henri Nouwen Society. My name is Wendy Vander Wal Martin, and I’m part of the team that’s committed to encouraging spiritual transformation through the writing and the work of Henri Nouwen. Now, today, I’m thrilled to have my guest right here in person. This is the first time I’m trying this, so hopefully we don’t look too weird on the video.  But Sandy Reynolds has been a friend for some time, and I actually got to know Sandy even better when I attended one of her retreats on Aging and Saging. I’ll say a bit more about that in a moment. But today we’re talking about Henri Nouwen’s book Aging, and the subtitle is The Fulfillment of Life.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, this is a book that Henri wrote with a colleague of his, William Gaffney, Walter Gaffney. And, rit was published in 1976 and then rereleased a few times. But we’ll be talking a bit today about its ongoing relevance, the timeless wisdom of Nouwen and Gaffney and Sandy’s work as well. So let me tell you a little bit, a bit more about Sandy Reynolds. Now, she has spent a lot of her career working in the arena of leadership consulting with major companies like Shopper’s Drug Mart and Air Canada. She’s, I know, facilitated things upwards, downwards, everywhere, <laugh>, you’ve worked with groups and one-on-one and every permutation you can imagine. But in the last five years, Sandy has transitioned to working in the area of conscious aging, a very conscious word choice there, conscious aging. Now, in addition to her training in adult education coaching, and you know, a master’s in leadership <laugh>, she has recently become a certified saging leader.

 Wendy VanderWal Martin: She’ll be able to tell you a bit more about that. And remember all the details that you would want to follow up on, anything to do with Sandy and her resources and so on will be in the show notes of the podcast.  She’s a writer, a podcaster, no pressure to me <laugh> speaker and workshop leader focused on the spirituality of aging. Sandy provides resources for adults who are interested in discovering purpose and meaning in their third act of life. It just gives it a dramatic flare, doesn’t it? So tell us a bit more, Sandy, first of all, just welcome and thank you for being here.

Sandy Reynolds: Thank You. And I, I’m happy to be a Guinea pig today and see how this goes.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Well, thank you. Well, yes, fingers crossed that it all works well. We’re sitting here in our mutual friend’s living room with a lovely bookcase behind us   For Henri’s bookshelf. Exactly. But, tell us more about how you’ve just really fallen in love with this arena of the spirituality of aging, conscious aging, the third act of life.  What’s been exciting and fulfilling for you in branching out into this arena?

Sandy Reynolds: So I think for me, the question about what I wanted these years to look like really started at about 55, I became a grandmother. And so immediately that kind of propelled me into thinking about, now I’m an older woman. You know, there’s never really a clear idea of when you’re older, when you’re younger, we’re all getting older, we’re all older every day. So I started to really think about that and look around and, and look for models of aging and for women I admired and what that would look like. And you know, you mentioned the third act of life. So that phrase really stuck with me when I started reading on this conversation, because your third act of life is, the time in your life of resolution. So when we think of the third act in a play, that’s a time when everything gets wrapped up. The, you know, the, all the plot lines come together and you start to really see what the story was all about. And that’s what I think this time of life is. And hey, I’m a baby boomer, so, you know, we’re like seekers. We’re always trying to find meaning in our experiences. So I think as this cohort, this generation ages we’re, we’re wanting to explore meaning in aging, in, in a way that, maybe hasn’t been done as exhaustively as we’re doing it.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: That’s so interesting. I think that as I’ve been reviewing this book again . Written in 1976, it’s so curious to me it’s the typical thoughtful, reflective invitation to a rich spirituality that Henri brings to the aging process. And it just makes me wonder, did it get read much in 1976? Right. What did people do with it? Because here we are, 2024, and maybe it’s just because I’m coming into the approach to my third act of life that I’m saying, wow, here was this resource 50 years ago. And getting to know you and talking about aging, especially the retreat that I was part of that you led, it just had such intentionality. And I think, who else is doing this? And, and did Henri lead the way? Did people really follow through and apply this? And so I wanted to read this quote that he and Walter put right into their introduction. They said, “We believe that aging is not a reason for despair, but a basis for hope. Not a slow decaying, but a gradual maturing, not a fate to be undergone, but a chance to be embraced.”

Sandy Reynolds: Yes.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Wow. So how have you experienced that kind of hopefulness as you’ve been accompanying others, and as you’ve gone through the certification process that you’ve done? So you’ve been in lots of intentional environments having these kinds of conversations tell us what that hope looks like in tangible ways for folks.

Sandy Reynolds: So I think, in my experience, it’s a hope in ‘this isn’t the end of the line.’ We’re not being put out to pasture. We’re not at a certain age completely irrelevant. I think this whole idea that he was writing about was about understanding and honoring aging as another part of spiritual development. And I don’t know that that’s always been understood. So I was a pastor’s wife, you know, my husband is retired now, but I was in that context of a church life. And for me, what we did, probably somewhat misguided, but not unusual. My mom’s in a church that she’s 86, and this is still the way that the seniors are treated or the way the seniors programming is offered. It’s very much about entertainment. It’s very much about having a missionary come in and speak, having a Christmas lunch going to St.

Sandy Reynolds: Jacobs on a bus trip. And yet the work that we do at this stage of life is very deep. And it’s maybe one of the most transformative and spiritually rich times in our life. It’s a time when we really reflect on our experiences and harvest the wisdom from our life. And we have so much to offer to our faith communities and beyond that we’re facing mortality. That’s a big piece of this work is coming to terms with your own mortality and not just what you believe about the afterlife, but all the fears and questions and preparation both practically spiritually and emotionally that go into that. So I, I think that’s the hope for me is that faith communities and beyond, all of our communities will start to really appreciate and understand that being old is not to be feared. And I think when we’re afraid of something, we reject it and we pull back from it.  And I think that’s why a lot of seniors are, which Henri talks about, feeling isolated and alone in their communities.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: I know a concept that I’ve been very curious and having almost a sense of wonderment about for a long time is something I have phrased, not that I thought of it, but eldership. This sense of this spiritual dynamic of impartation, of the kind of wisdom, the kind of patience, the kind of grace that really comes with having walked a long journey. And, I wonder if in our instantaneous microwave society, whether we’ve tossed away that wisdom. And so I think Henri’s book and this conversation matters so much, not just for those who are, you know, 60 plus, 70 plus, 80 plus, but for all of us to really, frame the aging process and the contribution of those in this third act of life,  with much deeper value and dignity and honor, and finding ways of transference of being, sitting in a sense of presence together.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And receiving those gifts and allowing those gems to come forth. So I’m really excited about our conversation. As I said, the book was first published in 1976, and, and Henri and Walter talk about some of the societal context that relegated elderly people to, a sense of, Henri called it segregation. Which then led to an experience of desolation. And this segregation… we’re not earning anymore. We’re not the contributors anymore. Right. So we’re kind of sidelined and this sense of disconnection from perhaps friends who died or, or loved ones who’d passed away, and the desolation, the sadness and isolation that came with that. And, and I was wondering that as you again, were into Henri’s writing on aging, is it still ring true? Has our society changed? Are elderly people being treated with more dignity today? And if so, why? What were some of your thoughts about that painting a societal picture of the dilemma of elderly folks?

Sandy Reynolds: So when I revisited this book recently, I looked at it and I, I thought about that. He actually quotes one a lot, this woman who was one of the very few people of his generation that wrote on aging, Florida Maxwell. We can put her name in the show notes, but he quotes her quite a bit, and she was one of the few people that was really writing back in the sixties and seventies about aging. And I was looking at it and, you know, we’ve just come through a pandemic. And one of the great casualties in the pandemic was seniors. There was a lot of fear. There were a lot of people in nursing homes that were isolated and cut off. And it, I think it really highlighted that maybe we haven’t moved that far along from when he wrote this book as we thought.

Sandy Reynolds: I think one of the, the things that has come up in the pandemic though, is that we need to address the kind of systems that are in place for aging people. I think the other thing is that when people were, when this book was written in the seventies, a 60-year-old woman was an old woman. Right. And we don’t see 60 as being old anymore. You know, that decade from 60 to 70, especially like in the work that I do, we kind of divide aging into almost three stages. And it’s go slow and know is, you know, and where those come are different for all of us. Right. But those early retirement years for most people now are very, we’re contributing. We’re very actively involved. It’s the later stages, I think when people need support like medically or physically or care in some way where we start to see that isolation and desolation that comes with that that he wrote about.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: This summer I was able to go visit my father-in-law who turned 90. And, he has a new girlfriend. Of about, I think six months maybe or so. And he’s a retired pastor. And, you know, just, it was so wonderful to hear one, how he has informally be kind of become a pastor in the senior’s residence where he lives, the sense of vitality with the new love in his life at 90, but also he’s so generative in his openness and expansion, of his mind as someone who was in ministry for years that he’s thinking theologically still and asking important questions spiritually. And, you know, he and I chatted a bit about Henri Nouwen, and as you know, a gateway for him to, question some things about the kind of theological training that he’d had and how much spirituality contributed to his ongoing openness. And now at 90, his grandchildren truly see him as a source of wisdom and courage and witness and a model as a thinker. And I just think, you know, that’s amazing to me, and such a beautiful gift to our extended family. To see him truly functioning as that elder with something to offer to the generations coming behind him.

Sandy Reynolds: You know, similarly, my mother is like a great model for me. She’s 86 years old and she loves to feed people. That’s sort of always been her thing. And now she’s seeing a lot of younger people. She still lives in her own home in the neighborhood whose children don’t know how to cook or bake. And so she invites them over to teach them how to cook or to bake something. And she’s really forging those kind of cross-generational relationships with younger families on her street. And I so admire that. I think that that’s something that we all benefit from is having relationships with people at different stages of life than us. And also I know that she benefits from those relationships, just like I’m sure your father-in-law, benefits from the energy and the liveliness of the younger people around him.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Yes. My daughter’s doing her master’s in theology and culture right now. And, it was just such a delight to see them together where she really wanted to kind of pick his brain about some things. And, it was such a delight for him. Now, Henri in the book asks this question, Sandy, “But who is the one who is going to call the elderly from their hiding places?” We’ve just shared stories about two who aren’t hiding, but you know, there are still many who wonder, what is my legacy? What do I have to offer? And so on. Henri says, “Who is the one who will take their fear away and will lead them out of the darkness of segregation, desolation and loss of selfhood into the light, which is prepared for all the nations to see?” That’s a small vision, all the nations to see like, wow, that’s a big vocation if you’re <laugh> elderly to wonder how you’re going to affect all the nations.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: But certainly this leading from darkness into light, and he offers this response. “It is the one who cares. Through caring, aging can become a way to the light and offer hope and new life.” And you’ve become certified as a leader in aging and saging. So tell us a bit about the kinds of services and resources that offer that kind of care. Henri goes on to talk about it as being a sense of presence of deep listening, but what are the ways in which you are learning about accompanying those in this maybe final part of the third act of life and what’s on offer for people to really make that movement towards light and even new life at that late stage in their life?

Sandy Reynolds: So I think I have two different points of view on that question. The first one is, and I just blogged about this last week, is that I think as older people, nobody’s going to really come and offer you a seat at the table. Possibly they might, but generally, I think we need to take responsibility as well for our own situation. And so I, and I know it’s not comfortable to kind of invite yourself into a conversation or to initiate things. And that just is something you have to decide. You’re willing to be uncomfortable enough to try and build those relationships and build that kind of community that you long for. And the other one is there, you know, I offer workshops and I speak at community groups and faith communities, and I am just finding that this type of work, there are… that people are really thirsty for it. They’re really hungry to have these conversations. I have a retreat and it’s sold out three months before the retreat date, which never happens. And there are people coming from across Canada to this retreat

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And the U.S.

Sandy Reynolds: Yes. Because they really want to talk about the spirituality and aging, and they want to explore this stage of life and find meaning and purpose in it, as well as, resolution to some of their own story. And so I think there are, there’s a lot of good books and good resources, and I can give you a list. There’s a list on my website. And then just start looking around or just invite a group of people with the intention of even studying a book like this. You know, this book was given to me by an 80-year-old woman about a year ago when she found out I was doing this work on aging and spirituality or conscious aging. And she said, oh, you need to read this book. And so then I went over to her house and had coffee with her, and we talked about the book and what it meant to her and what it meant to me. And I think that’s just a simple way to have that kind of connection, is get a book like this and grab a few people and read it and talk about it, and then see what comes out of that. What you know, insights or changes or projects or activities you want to do to expand on this work.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Well, having been one of the lucky ones, <laugh>, to get into one of your retreats, at the ripe old age of 54, I might add, I just found it was so rich to set aside time to be intentional, to reflect. It was spiritually rich, it was emotionally rich, communally, relationally. It was rich. And I’m so thrilled to be thinking about it at my age now. Yes. So that, you know, I have some practices put in place. I have some things I want to implement. Along the way so that this saging process of my life has a good long while. Yeah. So, you know, you don’t have to be an old person to pick up this book and say, Hey, I’d like to read it. I’d like to think about it. And then maybe there’s, you know, an aging parent you want to discuss it with, or folks from your faith community or others. But I think, I think it’s wise to create space to sow some seeds now and think about how do I want to go into that third act and be fruitful? Another big Henri motif.

Sandy Reynolds: And I was really happy that you joined us on that retreat because the, like the retreat I have coming up, the, the age is probably 60 to 80 year olds on the retreat. So you were a young one, and it was <laugh>. It was great to get

Wendy VanderWal Martin: But an old soul Yes. And an old soul. Yes.

Sandy Reynolds: And it was great to get your perspective because one of the things that that I learned a lot about in the last few years is ageism. And ageism is real. We all, and we all have internalized ageism. Children form their ideas about what it means to be an old person by the time they’re five years old. And so, you know, we’re, you see, like, I’ve seen my grandkids like throw on the shawl and get the stick and pretend they’re old. And I don’t know where that comes from, but not from you. But it seems to be somewhere like they see those kinds of images of older people. And so talking about aging can really help you confront your own inner ageism and face your own fears and your own anxieties and your own concerns about being an older person in a culture that really is very youth oriented and youth centered.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: The other thing I would say is that I think the retreat gave an opportunity to speak about death and dying. Yes. And I’m not sure that there are many safe life-giving contexts in which we make space again to speak about death and dying. And even though I was one of the younger ones at the retreat, death has been an ongoing reality in my life, given my mother’s death and when I was very young.  And I just really valued a space where it wasn’t weird to talk about death in the way that death has had a formational influence on my life. And so I think, again, that’s Henri’s written a lot on death and dying. And so there are other books to check out on that particular topic, but this is one entryway to begin a conversation about death, about dying, about,  even within your family system. How do we think through this? How do we talk about this in a spiritually attuned way?  Not just a practical way in terms of wills and estates and those kinds of things, but spiritually, how will we be ready and how will we walk this journey together?

Sandy Reynolds: Yes. And I think within the context of my, the faith community that I spent most of my adult life in, there was kind of an attitude towards death that, you know, it was a victory, you know, death, where is  your sting, that kind of thinking. And it was something that we had to feel very victorious about. And theologically yes that may be true, but practically there’s a lot of anxiety around mortality and around facing your death. And I think we can have both conversations, and I think we can talk about, and I think they’re important. I think, you know, your beliefs about the afterlife and…

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And your questions about that…

Sandy Reynolds: Your questions are important. And so is your wrestling with your own anxieties and fears about pain and suffering and how will you die? And all of those things. I talked to a man who was in his eighties, and I… and this was about 15 years ago before I got into my own journey. And I remember asking him, do you ever think about mortality? And he was like, every day. He said, that’s all I talk to my spiritual director about is mortality. And I was like, okay, that’s good to know. You know, like, and I’ve thought back on that conversation and just realized that we need to have those conversations about facing mortality. It’s important to not feel like that’s not a conversation that we can have with our friends and family.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And also, I think to have it in a safe space where it isn’t a litmus test for your faith. Where there is just really, again, that space for the very real and legitimate emotions and thoughts and questions that you have.

Sandy Reynolds: Yes, exactly. I’m starting a death doula certification this fall, and part of that is, I think it compliments this very well, but I realized that I had a lot of, work that I wanted to do. I’m really understanding, like, how do I want my last days to be and what are what are even the options? And how do you find that out? You know, where do you find that out? And doing some preparation, I think, ahead of time and trying to find,  your way before it’s a crisis is really helpful.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Well, and a doula, like a midwife. And accompany, or I think still many people’s fear is that they will die alone.

Sandy Reynolds: Yeah.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And so to know that, again, the intentionality of providing that spiritual accompaniment is such a beautiful, intentional, expression of care. Now, returning back to Henri, because he has a lot to say about how do we, how are we ready to offer care that is of rich value to the one we’re receiving. And he says, “To care, one must offer one’s own vulnerable self to others as a source of healing. To care for the aging, therefore means, first of all, to enter into close contact with your own aging self, to sense your own time, and to experience the movements of your own lifecycle. From this aging self healing can come forth and others can be invited to cast off the paralyzing fear for their future.”

Sandy Reynolds: Wow. I love that.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Right, right. Well, and I see how you’ve embodied that in such a beautiful way. But, you know, just to invite you into that space of vulnerability, what are some things that, that you just say, wow, my life has been so enriched by embarking on this intentional path. What, what have you learned about yourself?

Sandy Reynolds: It’s a good question, <laugh>. That’s a big question. I think one of the things that I’ve learned is that I did have a lot of fear around getting older, and that I felt a little bit less than as an older woman because of what some of the things that you read earlier that are… so much of our value is placed on who we are in terms of our contributions, making money, all of those things. So I think the conscious aging for me, has really helped me to understand the value of aging for myself, for my family, and for my community. I think there’s a big part of healing. So the work, one of the aspects of work that you do in one of my workshops or unconscious aging, would be life review and life repair. And along with that is forgiveness of yourself and of other people, and finding healing. And I think we’ve all seen and been around people, sadly, who come to the end of their life, and they have not resolved the pain in their life. They have not forgiven people. They you know, they go to their grave still very broken and hurt and wounded by life. So this is an opportunity for people to face some of those more difficult times in their life and find closure and healing and forgiveness so that they are ready for the transition to what’s next in the afterlife.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And, and the power of witness, it just comes to me again, to have someone at that stage of life to bear witness to what you have experienced. The pain, the difficulty. I think that witness can be a conduit in some ways for the release that maybe has been languishing. Yes. That just needs to be gently let go of. And when someone’s there to accompany you, someone like Sandy who’s been so intentional to learn and absorb a lot of the wisdom, the collective wisdom around not just aging, but saging, that’s just such a beautiful offering. So I am grateful that a friend of mine has taken this journey, because I think all of us who know you are now just upping our game. We’re thinking about it more, we’re attending to it more.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And my hope is that in addition to picking up a copy of Henri and Walter’s book on Aging, that this conversation will have been just a bit of a catalyst for you to give some thought. Maybe you’re 26 years old and aging is not on the radar for you, and yet it brings an intentionality to your life. The kinds of things like memoir writing or the journaling exercises that come with it, and thinking about what has already happened and memories and how you frame that. And yeah. And I think that can begin, that work can begin at any age, really. Yes.

Sandy Reynolds: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thank you.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: So I always, close these conversations by asking friends and guests, you know, what are the practices in your life, and maybe they’ve been affected by this work in conscious aging, that just help you to live a sustainable life, keep you open to flourishing. What are some of the practices that accompany you in your life’s journey?

Sandy Reynolds: So I think, and it might go very well with aging, maybe I’m just growing into this maturity is rest, I find that I am much more willing to listen to my body and to rest when I feel tired rather than push through. And I am really protective of a quiet day a week. So I usually spend one morning a week where I just journal and pray and write and reflect on what I’m reading. Not just consuming information, but taking a book I’m reading and really looking at what that means for me. And then just napping and hanging out all day long. So that, for me, keeps me grounded, keeps me really feeling nourished spiritually and ready to engage in life for the other six days of the week.

 Wendy VanderWal Martin: I love that. It’s so intriguing to me that every conversation I have for whatever podcast episode we’re recording for the Henri Nouwen Society, I’m hearing all these different practices, and some of them are sort of, well known practices, others are just articulated in a different way. And I think it’s been really rich for me just to hear each guest kind of be thoughtfully say, this is really what keeps me connected. So thank you. And Sandy, thank you for the conversation. Thank you. I’m just really appreciative of your time. Thank you. This it happens to be the afternoon. Thank you to you who are listening. Yes. If you’ve been paying attention to this conversation and want some more information, again, as I’ve said, Sandy Reynolds, all of her stuff will be in the show notes as will Henri’s book Aging and how to get your hands on that.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Thank you so much for spending some time. If you would like to watch Sandy and I in this conversation as the Guinea pig <laugh> experiment that it’s been, this is also loaded up on the Henri Nouwen Society YouTube channel. Feel free to leave us a review if you’ve enjoyed the conversation or a thumbs up.  Absolutely share this with family and friends that you think would benefit from listening and becoming more intentional about the aging process. And also, if you’re new to the Henri Nouwen Society, we invite you to head over to our website. We have free daily meditations. We’d love for you to sign up. And as Henri would’ve said, never ever forget you are a beloved child of God. Thanks for being with us.