Wendy VanderWal Martin: Hello, friends, and welcome to a new episode of Love Henri podcast, produced by the Henri Nouwen Society. My name is Wendy VanderWal Martin, and I’m part of the team that’s committed to encouraging spiritual transformation through the legacy of contemporary spiritual master Henri Nouwen. Now, if you’re new to Henri encourage you to go to our website, henrinouwen.org, check out all of our resources, but especially look for our free daily meditations. We send them out by email, and every day you’ll be reminded that you are a beloved child of God. Now, if you’re a longtime lover of Henri, you’ll enjoy that in this podcast, we’re hearing from our guests how Henri impacted their lives, and I’m so excited today to be speaking to a longtime friend Melinda Estabrooks, who I know has some wonderful stories from her own journey, and also the way that Henri was part of her journey of faith and journey of healing, and growing in an awareness that even as wounded healers, we have a calling and vocation to be an encouragement to others. So, Melinda, welcome to the episode, and it’s great to have you on the couch.

Melinda Estabrooks: Wendy, thank you so much. It’s an honor and privilege. I’ve been wanting to chat with you for so long, and love that I can be here, learn from you and more from Henri as I hear his letters, and I’m looking so forward to this conversation.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, for those of you who don’t know, Melinda, let me just give you a just a wee little bit of a snapshot. Her career spans over 20 years in broadcast, motivational speaking and advocacy. So that’s a wide spectrum as it is. In January of 2017, Melinda became the executive producer and the host of an incredible show called See, Hear, Love. Now, in the show notes, we’ll have all the information about how you can access, See, Hear, Love, go back and watch past episodes, look forward to new ones as they drop. But Melinda’s hope and joy in life is to share her personal story of faith, grace, and redemption to women and to men all around the world. The show See, Hear, Love, maybe especially draws an audience of women and encourages them to be courageous in the face of difficulties and trials. And this tagline, take note of it, “Today, is not your forever.” Melinda, I would love for you to share a little bit more about this passion project of yours. See, Hear, Love. It’s something you’ve birthed. You imagined it, you saw it in your dreams, and now it’s been several years in the running. How many episodes have you have you dropped?

Melinda Estabrooks: Oh, hundreds and hundreds of episodes, Wendy, we’re going into our 10th season, I can’t believe it. 10Th season. 10Th season. So eight seasons on National Television podcast, but started 10 season our first season online only as a web show. And it was that because as a Gen Xer, I was wanting to reach sort of the millennial next generation with stories about women who were resilient and courageous living out their faith and working out their faith in their life. And I just found, Wendy, that there was sort of this whole, this gap in Canada for a safe place for women to have discussion around the couch around the table, about things that really matter to them. I mean, we’re talking about me, especially coming out of very evangelical culture where we weren’t able or felt safe to talk about things like shame you know, our grief and loss our own depression, our mental, you know, health struggles blended family being single sexuality you know, autism, eating disorders.

Melinda Estabrooks: I mean, I could go on and on and on, celebrity church culture, all of those things. And so, you know, for those who are entrepreneurs, it was like, I was terrified. I had no idea how to do this, but I really felt strongly that God was calling me to step in with courage into this place online and to create a show really difficult. I, you <laugh>, if you want to do something like this, you have got to go all in and have the people around you to help you. And I did. But it’s been a challenging but satisfying journey. And I’ve met so many incredible women and men. We did move into some men’s conversations because men were saying, “We’re watching with our wives, your show, and some of these topics about identity men don’t get to talk about, would you consider opening up the conversation to men?”

Melinda Estabrooks: So for a few seasons, Wendy, we had men’s panel, and I was like, I’m just going to listen in. I’m not going to nag you. I’m going to just listen and hear what you have to say. And that was an incredible experience. So it is, it has been a wonderful experience. And if I could just say this, the reason why it’s called See, Hear, Love, is that for the past 26 years when I was speaking across Canada and around the world every time I would finish speaking men and women, youth, young people will come up to me. And the three things they would say to me at the core of their pain and angst, were, number one, I don’t feel seen, like people do not see me, Melinda. And it’s not just the physical sense, but I don’t feel value. And beloved, I do. I matter.

Melinda Estabrooks: I get passed by, I get, you know, passed over. I’m not seen. The second thing they would say, I am not heard. It feels like my voice is not heard. I don’t have agency to speak truth, to speak up about injustice, to share my story. I’m not heard. I, no one wants to listen to me. No one seems to care about my story, the narrative in which is truth. And then finally, Wendy, the last was love, which was the most heartbreaking when, you know, women and men would come up to me and say, I don’t feel love. I don’t feel loved by my spouse or by my kids. I don’t feel loved by God. I feel like I’m abandoned. And then deeply what was deeply sad was when they said, and I just don’t love myself. I’m not worthy. I’m not beloved.

Melinda Estabrooks: I don’t think I matter. So the show title came from hearing hundreds of people say this over and over and over to me. And I said, all right, God, what should I call this show? And it was very obvious. It was like, see your love and tell people that they’re seen, heard and deeply loved by me. And so that’s how it came to be. And here we are, 10 seasons later, nine years later, still doing it across Canada, hearing the stories of women deeply honest, deeply courageous and amplifying diverse voices so that so that people don’t feel alone. So that’s really the gist of why I’m doing what I do.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Well, Melinda, I know you well enough, and I know some of your journey well enough to know why it was people felt safe enough to come to you with those three things. I don’t feel seen. I don’t feel heard. I don’t feel loved. And so that kind of segues into this question about what Henri’s impact has been on your life, Henri Nouwen. And tell us a bit about your journey and where Henri intersected in that and before a, a show called See, Hear, Love Henri was inviting people into vulnerable places. He was gently exposing those things that cause us to not feel safe and was creating an environment in which people could risk and be honest and be truthful. So I know that there’s an incredible dovetail between what Henri was all about and what you’ve become all about in your calling and your ministry and your vocation.

Melinda Estabrooks: Yes. So in my early twenties, Wendy, I received the book, the Return of the Prodigal. And I’m trying to remember if it was a professor at my Christian university, or a pastor from a church, a Gen X church plant that I was a part of. I just remember, and it’s so funny, I don’t see the person, but I remember receiving the book and the pastor or professor saying, you need to read this. So I said, okay. Now it, the word prodigal really struck me because years prior, I was a prodigal. I mean, the background story is I was adopted out of an orphanage in the Philippines. I grew up in a missionary family. My mother’s Ukrainian, my dad’s German, they have two of their own children, biological children. And they came to Asia to do mission work through the radio. I loved living in Asia.

Melinda Estabrooks: We were bible smugglers. We smuggled bibles into communist countries. Our world was international, lots of missionaries, lots of pastors. And it was a very full, wonderful life in my childhood, a rich, flourishing, thriving, very centered, and felt very strong about who I was. You know, I was an orphan and I was adopted, and I fully understood what it meant to have a new name and to be an Estabrooks when I had no name. And in 1986, I came to Canada, and this is where things started to unravel. It was the first time that when I moved into an all white wasp neighborhood, for the first time ever, Wendy, I felt different people were racist, biased, prejudiced against me, the color of my skin, the gender that I was. I was a communicator and a leader. And so combine all of that in that time.

Melinda Estabrooks: And it wasn’t good for a young girl. People didn’t understand how to relate with me. People made assumptions that were very harmful and hurtful. And so because of that, I felt not beloved, not worthy, not valued, and instead wanted to fill my life with things that could numb the pain of not feeling included or belonging. And so from 16 to about 21 years old, I said, “Yes, I follow Jesus.” And I would go to church, but the rest of my life was in the clubs and drugs and drinking and men and escaping and lying constantly about my life and who I was. And if I could say Wendy, I was really like a chameleon. I was like, I could be whoever you wanted me to be, because that was safe and that was easy, and I could belong if I was what you wanted me to be.

Melinda Estabrooks: So it was exhausting, difficult, and made so many brutal decisions that were very harmful to me physically and emotionally and spiritually. I was in abusive relationships, in sexually manipulative relationships, harming myself. It was, it was really, it was really hard. And through just love of my father, love of community found my way back. But when I received Henri’s book, I was just coming back, I was still not sure about this, not sure about the church. Did God really love me? Would I be received home? And here I get a book that is all about homecoming to come home. It’s about the Father’s love. To be loved as God’s beloved. It was all about love, and it was all the things. And I, even to this day, Wendy, when I talk about, I was like through the book, reading it, weeping through, because I could relate to the Prodigal son.

Melinda Estabrooks: And a lot of the book gave me language about what I was going through and language about the significance of home and homecoming, which is what my soul desperately needed and actually desired. And so profound, profound impact. Profound, you know, bought so many of the books. And I was saying to my husband, like, I was trying to find the book for this interview. Gone. His copies, my copies, I think we literally bought a ton. And they’ve all been given away. Because that’s the kind of book it is. You don’t want to keep it for yourself, you have got to give it away. So don’t have the book, but remember the story and remember how the impact of that in just, I think I think it was because I didn’t have any clear, not even in the church or any other literature that connected with me on that, like actually was using words.

Melinda Estabrooks: I understood, “Yep, that actually is me.” But it wasn’t shaming me. It was sharing the story. And I was like, I was a part of that. That’s me. Inserted myself in it and kind of felt it, like lived it. And then the homecoming and the father with his robes up running it was a beautiful visual of how God, for the first time really is sensing how God comes after me pulls me and loves me, embraces me, even though I’ve done such horrible things in my life. And so profound impact, Wendy in that book, homecoming, home, Father’s Love, and not only the Father’s love shown, but also writing as Henri did to write about the receiving of that lavish love. Because that’s also hard too. It’s like we can acknowledge that God loves us, but then the step of like actually receiving it, if you feel unworthy or ashamed, but God’s like, “No.” You know, the receiving of so powerful, beautiful, life changing,

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And this was made so real in your relationship with your adopted father.

Melinda Estabrooks: Yes.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: You’d come home from college and tell us the story.

Melinda Estabrooks: So again, this is <laugh>, this book, so much of coinciding with my own life. And when I say about understanding Father’s love, it’s because my own father, adopted father showed that to me. And I actually, my dad did read this. I think I either gave him the book or told him to get the book, and he read it. And I remember saying, you know, dad, I see how you, how you responded to me in this book. And, and through, you know, God, but  let me tell you the story. So my prodigal years I had mentioned before about this very abusive and sexually manipulative relationship, and it was out of the church. And so everybody thought, Wendy, it was this beautiful Christian relationship. We’d met in college and careers. He said the right things. And we kind of started dating and everybody thought it was great.

Melinda Estabrooks: Maybe you guys would get married. But the shadow side, the underbelly of it all was that he actually he wasn’t great. He wasn’t good. And there was a lot of manipulation and a lot of control. And for four years, when we dated, we, I just lied. We just lied about a relationship constantly where we were going, what we were doing. Honestly saying that we were not having a sexual relationship. And yet we were. And because we were leaders in the church, we were leading and doing bible studies and doing all kinds of things. And yet here we were fronting and creating this facade of the perfect Christian couple. Meanwhile, so much of this was happening and the abuse and just, just the relationship was sick, and it wasn’t healthy. And I was ashamed of it. And I was ashamed. I was really ashamed.

Melinda Estabrooks: Anyway, finally, after a very traumatic experience, I literally removed myself and ran away from him. It was, I think it was the protection of God or angels, but it came to a point where he tried to like, hit me and he kept missing. And he didn’t know why he was missing. And I, to this day, think it was like, angels protecting me. Because there’s no way he could miss my face. But he kept missing, and I was able to extract myself and run away. I called my dad, but I thought, okay, well that’s four years of that. Nobody has to know what happened. All the pain, all the lying, the stealing, all that kind of thing. So I went to Bible college to, in a way, escape. And when I came home, Wendy one weekend I came home and my sister was like, oh, Melinda, you are in trouble.

Melinda Estabrooks: I’m like, why? And she says, dad and mom found out about your relationship with your ex. He decided to confront them and tell them everything that’s happened in detail. And for the past couple weeks, dad has been crying and weeping for you and about you and all that you’ve gone through. And when I was horrified, mortified, because I’m like, it’s all exposed. They know now. And my dad was like, I think a deacon on the church. And I found out that other people in the church started hearing. And so now I’m ashamed of what I’d done. So I go up the stairs and I’m like freaking out. And I walk up to the stairs and to my bedroom, and my bedroom is clean and shiny, and there’s new curtains and in my bedroom. And I said to my sister, Tanya, what’s happening? Who did my room?

Melinda Estabrooks: I’ve been away at school. And she goes, oh, well, that’s the funny thing, Melinda, when dad was so upset about all of this and your lies, he goes, and he cleans your room and puts up new curtains for you so that when you came home, you’d have a beautiful place to stay for the weekend. I remember standing there, Wendy, and I just started sobbing. I’m like, what? That’s counter <laugh>, intuitive, counter, everything like that shouldn’t be. So I cried for a while. I wrote a letter of asking for forgiveness, and I’m sorry. And I put it in my parents’ bedroom under the bed or under the door, and didn’t see them. And the next day I needed to go back to the school. And so I asked my sister to drive me home. And she’s like, I can’t. And I asked my mom and she said, no, I can’t.

Melinda Estabrooks: And so my dad’s like, well, I guess I have to drive you back to school. And it was terrifying because for any human, you, or maybe it was me, Wendy, but the whole ride, which is about an hour and a half, I was saying, and replaying in my mind, now my dad’s going to berate me. My dad’s going to say what, honestly, like I am. He may even say, and this was the, the deep part of just my shame was that he may even say, you’re actually not my real daughter, and we’re ashamed of you. He may say, we don’t want to have anything to do with you. I’m driving you to this school to tell you to not come home. Like, these are literally the thoughts. I’m unworthy. I’m not loved. Look what I’ve done. I’ve shamed my good Christian dad and family with what I’ve done.

Melinda Estabrooks: So the whole time we’re driving, I’m waiting for this. I’m literally clutching and to the side of the car, and when I am waiting for it, and my dad’s kind of a big guy, and he’s got this deep voice. So I’m waiting for the whole time. He is just like, “How’s school? And how are you?” And I’m waiting, I’m waiting, I’m waiting. Nothing. And then we get to the school and I’m like, here it is. Dad is going to say it in front of all my friends and all my profs, that I’m a fake, I’m a fraud, that I’m not worthy. And instead, he looks at me and I still get emotional. And he says, “You know, Melinda, I know you know that we know, and thank you for your note. We forgive you. We love you, you”, and he says, “you are always will be our daughter.”

Melinda Estabrooks: You know, we’re sorry that you went through this and that you couldn’t trust us to share what you’re going through, but we absolutely forgive you and love you. You are ours. He said, actually, you are our daughter and will always love you. So he says, we don’t need to talk about this again. You don’t need to put shame or anything over you, but know that we forgive you and love you. And he kissed me on the forehead, and he brought my bags out to the school. And then he drove away. And I remember standing in the middle of the foyer of the university, Wendy, and I was sobbing because I’m like, I think for the first time I got God’s love, Father’s love, because my father actually demonstrated and modeled what that was. Because what I deserved was the berating and the, you know, the wounding and the anger and the embarrassment.

Melinda Estabrooks: But instead, I received new curtains and a clean room and forgiveness and love, and a drive to the school, and a kiss on the forehead. And the words that you are ours, that you are our daughter. So, so many years later, and I still weep because it is now that time after I received the book, the Henri Nouwen book. And again, it just was like, okay, God, I’m getting what you’re saying here. So I was, I had that modeled to me. Now I’m reading this book, but you’re reinforcing about God’s love receiving it. Because it took a while, even after that, when for me to really understand receiving God’s love. Because you have to work through a lot of that. And so huge moments. And it was like perfect timing. It was like God knew I needed these actual moments and demonstration of God’s love. And then to read a book that wasn’t overwhelming and long, but a really good book to say, here’s the story. Here it is. Here’s God’s love. It was, it was like the perfect, perfect timing and moment. And it changed the trajectory of my life. I really believe where I’m at today, what I’m doing today is because I was able to get that <laugh>, I was able to get what that meant about love.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: It just strikes me, Melinda, listening to you just how, how invested God was in your healing.

You know, and God is that way for all of us. But I think when we hear a story like this and we see it so tangibly, and of course Henri in the book, the Return of the Prodigal Son comes to the end saying, we are called to be like the father. If we’ve been a prodigal, we have to deal with that. If we’ve been like the older brother and kind of self-righteous and very religious, we’ve have got to deal with that. But whatever it is, whatever the journey’s been to that point, the true healing comes when we welcome others home. And I know through See, Hear, Love, you are welcoming people home, people who might be post-Christian, not interested in religion at all, but their spiritual selves are tender and vulnerable. And sometimes frightened or ashamed or unsure. And you get to say, “No, there’s a place for you at home. Welcome home. You are beloved. You know, you are worthy. You are safe here.

Melinda Estabrooks: And I think you’re right, Wendy. I think a lot of times when you produce something, create something or launch something, it comes from a deep place of your own life experience. When people ask me, it’s like, I wanted to be seen, heard, and loved. I struggled with that. I want others to be seen, heard, and loved. It’s exactly it. It’s, you know, why do you create a safe space for conversation and amplify diverse voices? Because I wanted my voice to be amplified, and I had people that did that. I want a safe place to discuss things that are difficult without judgment. And so, you know, I, when I talk to young women, or I’m speaking, always encourage, like, if there’s something in there that’s birthing out of your own experience or the God connection, then listen to that. You know, listen to that. Write the book. Paint the artwork. Write your poetry. Do what is there. Because like, when, because of that, I’ve just seen Wendy, you know, in the past 10 seasons, women being brave enough to share their story. And that comes because I think I had to get to that place to be brave and to share the story. And then God is like, perfect, then create this platform. So that’s just an encouragement. I say that all the time. A lot of us, it’s in there and it just needs to, you know, come out.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And Henri in the eighties and the nineties when it maybe wasn’t quite as common as it might be today, was so vulnerable with his struggles, with, you know, the book, the Wounded Healer saying, it’s good to know, I am, I’m struggling. I’m a mess. And yet, you know, we create both out of the trauma we’ve experienced and the healing. And it is this, you know, integrated, paradoxical both/and.

So the catalyst for these podcasts has been Henri’s letters.   That’s why it’s called Love, Henri. We have a collection of them in the book Love Henri. And today, you and I are going to consider this letter that Henri wrote in August of 1995, and it’s to a woman named Catherine.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And so let’s listen to what Henri’s written.

Many thanks for your kind letter. I appreciate your thinking of me. It’s so nice to know that the poster of the prodigal son found a place in your bedroom. I understand the great pain you must have suffered from what happened to you in Rwanda. It must really feel like a rejection. And from my own experience, I know how deeply that can hurt. I pray for you that you will live through this pain faithfully and be able to unite yourself with the broken heart of Jesus. It will be a real struggle for you not to become bitter or resentful and to choose gratitude instead. But I know when you are able to choose gratitude, your prayer life will move to a deeper place and you will experience great new inner freedom. Thanks so much for writing. Be sure of my love and prayers yours, Henri.

Melinda Estabrooks: Beautiful. Beautiful.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now what resonates for you? Love that in this letter, Melinda. I mean, there’s so much that could be said.

Melinda Estabrooks: I know, there’s so many things.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: You know, a young woman who’s been in Africa and seeking to do ministry as far as we can tell and has experienced betrayal, hurt, rejection, just so painful.   And Henri writes with this tender pastor’s heart. What, what resonates for you?

Melinda Estabrooks: I think the quote, Wendy, that really does resonate with me is that says, quote, that you will live through this pain faithfully and then unite yourself with the broken heart of Jesus. And it connects so deeply because for me, I’m thinking, oh, when was, there were many things in my life that where I had to live through pain. But if I’m looking at my life, I would say the one moment that was the most painful was probably my very public divorce while I was on national Christian television. And my husband decided that he did not want to be married to me. And so when you talk about living through pain faithfully, what a journey to process that and go through that and remain faithful, not go into a dark place of, again, I am not worthy. I am not beloved.

Melinda Estabrooks: I am not enough. Which were things that, again, if, you know, as I earlier shared, were sort of this theme or thought that I had, you know, and I know that a lot of women do feel that the unworthiness, I’m not valued and not valuable. But in that, then when Henri says, unite yourself with the broken heart of Jesus, that’s powerful. Because Jesus understood and felt knew rejection from the ones he loved the most, from the people that he was with. And so I, that speaks so much to me because when I say the words rejection, abandonment, grief, and loss, that’s Jesus in his life of being rejected and abandoned and understanding grief and loss himself. And so, I really, that really stuck, you know, sticks out to me, Wendy, that part. And I think, you know, through pain faithfully, that’s interesting because you’re like, Ugh, I don’t want to be faithful <laugh>.

Melinda Estabrooks: And I, that’s counter again, I don’t, I don’t want to be, you know, to live through this pain faithfully. Well, that sounds awful, Henri. Like, you know, I want to live through pain very quickly. I want the pain to end soon. I don’t want to go through pain. You know, he’s saying, live through this pain faithfully, and in that you will unite yourself with the broken heart of Jesus. It’s beautiful. It, it’s beautiful. And I get that. I understand that. And thankfully I did have really great community, a really great therapist <laugh> a great doctor, a lot of great people who were there for me to help me walk through this pain faithfully and come out the other side. And, you know, on another podcast we can share that you, Wendy, were very much the key to me finding love again and finding my new husband Chris, and a whole new life in, in that.

Melinda Estabrooks: And so, you know, I think part of it is being faithful being open, doing the hard work. And then I think just with the broken heart of Jesus, that moves me. Because I understand broken heart being broken hearted. And that’s very tender, as you said before, like the broken heart of Jesus. He knows because his heart was broken and hurt. So those, that definitely resonates. I also think the choosing gratitude, experiencing great new inner freedom, that’s, that’s key. I talk a lot about that in the show, but also in my own life about gratitude and the connection of that, of when we are people of gratitude, it changes everything about the way you see the world and your life and others. And it’s hard. I’m not saying that I, I’ve mastered it because sometimes I still can go into a place of like, ugh, anxiousness and stress and being overwhelmed.

Melinda Estabrooks: But there is that the choosing of gratitude, you can be in a hard place. And like, even when I was going through the divorce or when I was going through my dark night of the soul depression, and when I was going through my ICU almost dying experience and all these different things in my life, Wendy, when I actually sat back and chose gratitude and said, what is good? What’s around me people, my breath, I’m still alive. I can walk. I can think I still have movement. I have experienced love. People love me. I can love there was a beautiful cardinal in the tree. I just saw like a fox down the street. I just saw, you know, a Hosta growing. And I’m not a gardener, but that’s a triumph. Like all of a sudden you look around your life and you’re like, choosing gratitude completely changes how you interact with the divine and others and yourself for that matter.

Melinda Estabrooks: Right? And so that was, that’s really key. And what Henri says too, it was so many good things about the choosing gratitude. And it actually then creates inner freedom. You’re not bound and locked by grief and rejection and abandonment. You’re actually free because here you are looking outside of yourself and going, wow, it is good. It is good. And I can get through this one day at a time. Because earlier, like you said, today is not your forever. And that’s also part of this tagline that I lived by. That when I was going through my divorce, my girlfriend Marcia, was sitting on the floor with me and I was folding my clothes as I had to move out of the house. And I was in a fetal position and I couldn’t fold. So I collapsed on the ground. And I couldn’t do it. I’m like, what has happened to my life?

Melinda Estabrooks: And very publicly, because, you know, being on national television and people were asking, we are part of the church and all that. And she came over and she rubbed my head and she’s like, you know, Melinda, and she’s saying, you know, a hymn over me. And then she looked at me, she says, you know, God has never left you, forsaken you, even if your husband has. And I want to remind you that today is not your forever. You here in the fetal position is not necessarily you in a fetal position tomorrow or next week. So you have a choice. You can get up, you can cry, but you can also get up, start folding your clothes and get out of the house and start living your life. And I’ll never forget that, Wendy, today’s not your forever became this sort of like, kind of like motto, anthem, just this truth that I actually, literally through counseling and my journaling, like would write it at the top of my pages.

Melinda Estabrooks: So today, if today’s not my forever, what am I going to do today? And a lot of it was, what can I be grateful for? Or what am I going to do that’s going to be a positive thing for me? Even if it’s little, like, have a shower, <laugh>, walk outside of your house and get some sun on your face. I mean that. And when people are depressed or understand that those are big things when you’re going through that. And that’s what it took. Again, that’s what it took for me in some of these crises in my life to get where I am today. So I appreciate that letter in so many ways that he wrote. It’s… he aligns himself and understands, which is so deeply what people want so much. Like, I understand you and I hear you, but be faithful and then you’ll be united with Jesus and very tenderly.

Melinda Estabrooks: And then it’s like, and choose gratitude. It’s also like a beautiful kind of mentoring, pastoral shepherding thing of like, okay, and also choose gratitude because it’ll bring you inner freedom. And so let’s go. You know, like it’s, it’s beautiful. It’s a great letter. You know, those are, man, I wish there were more letters like that. And it was probably handwritten and mailed, which I also miss just to PS like, we’re missing handwritten letters that you receive in the mail. So yeah, love, love that letter to Catherine. And in, so, and I’m so encouraged by it,

Wendy VanderWal Martin: It seems to me as I’m listening to you tell different pieces of your story, how critical relationships and and truly community have been <laugh>. I’ve had this refrain running in my head. You know, it takes a village for us to heal. It takes a village when we have these deep, deep, deep seeded roots of abandonment and rejection that then make it… it just flavors how we walk through life. You know, I’m not adopted, but my mother died when I was 16 months old and I have no memories of her. And so I think some of the experiences of children who’ve been adopted who don’t know where their birth parents are or who they are, whether they’re like them, and that’s another story that you have. But that root of rejection, how God is so delighted to heal us of that and will put people in our lives and books in our lives and people like Henri Nouwen in our lives and, you know, experiences where people come to us with both tenderness and they challenge us to step up to form our character.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: You know, Henri says in the letter, like, it’ll be hard, but don’t become bitter or resentful. Don’t let your character fall down to the level of what was done to you. But step up into the gratitude that brings you an inner healing and an inner freedom.   And I’m sure that Catherine wasn’t trying to do this by herself. I’m sure that there were others. Now that she’s gone from Rwanda, presumably back in her home country, people who love her and people who can say with tenderness, step up now. Step up into who you truly are.

Community is part of what you’re doing through See, Hear, Love. Tell us a bit more about that. How do people connect with each other through the show and through the events you do? And how do you see that experience of community really help people to step into that inner freedom?

Melinda Estabrooks: I love that question. It’s a great question, Wendy. I think as you’re talking about this, and we had talked earlier about this, you know, the mission of See, Hear, Love is to create a spa, you know, a safe space of belonging.   And when I think about that, it’s like, how have we created that? And because exactly what you’ve said, I’ve gone through so much of it and I’ve needed community to help me through it. Then it was like, how am I going to create community on this larger platform for women? And so I think some of the key things, I’m just going to list some things because I wrote some things down. Because I was like, what does it take? What, how do we create that community? So I think we are a community that listens. I think listening is really key. You know, so many people are talked at, are entertained.

Melinda Estabrooks: But to actually know that there’s a community that listens and will sit and be present and listen has been really big. It’s like the number one, people are like, thank you for listening. Thank you for providing the space and your full attention. To me it’s big. And we take that for granted, but it’s actually quite sacred to be the priority and focus of someone’s attention. And yeah. So I feel that we’re, and we’re working at trying to be that community that listens, you know, a community that risks in a way of the things we do and where we go and traveling here and there and going to different places and getting different themes and conversations. So when we had to look at the celebrity church and pastor culture that was deeply had deeply hurt many of us co-hosts and myself on the show, we had to go and talk about it.

Melinda Estabrooks: And it was hard because we’d all been hurt by it. And we were talking about people that we, we looked to and cared about, but we had to be brave in this conversation. It was at one of our number one shows because so many women wrote us and said, “Thank you for doing that. So well, it wasn’t angry in a way. It wasn’t manipulative in a way. It was honest. And you took responsibility. And then you talked about how we cared for victims. And it was just a healthy, thoughtful show.” And so we have to have those conversations. We had to, you know, go into the places of people deconstructing and why people didn’t go to church. We had to talk about our issues of people with disability and our fears about our own mental illness. And that work has become our identity and challenges within the church.

Melinda Estabrooks: It’s risky. Because we knew that people were going to push back. And so I find that, you know, can we go more? Absolutely. I also have to be wise to bring the audience and people with me. And so it takes some time to lay good foundations and trust. And so I find that has been creating for people and women that I, that they’re like, “Okay, you’re a community that it’s going to talk about some hard things.” I think the next thing, Wendy, is just this community that has diverse opinions and still respects and loves one another. We are not all on the same <laugh> at all. Many of us on any sort of the same, we are, there’s extreme people on either side of our faith journey, of our understanding of theology, of our understanding of scripture, of our understanding of women and roles and men, all kinds of things. And so we’ve had to work very hard at how do we try and get voices that we may not agree with and still love and respect.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Oh, important

Melinda Estabrooks: To be modern. It’s, and it’s hard. It’s hard because some people are like, it is, and we try and we don’t agree. We have sometimes more spicier conversations in the green room and in the makeup room more so sometimes on set. Because some people get all like, but I encourage that. And it’s also because I work with an organization, I’ve had to bring my organization along to trust me that these are important things. And so that’s been actually an interesting role for me as well. Be honest. That it’s not just the level of the show, but it’s also an organization and others and stakeholders that you have to bring along. And I feel that as a steward of this there’s some great responsibility and sometimes it’s terrifying.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Absolutely.

Be able to create that space and have people trust you on all sides as you talk about really polarizing or difficult conversations. Because you’re trying to build trust. And be prophetic. And those almost seem contradictory, right? Because the truth teller rattles cages, the one who actually says, this system is trying too much to people. We need to take risks and build trust at the same time. That’s really complicated and requires such discernment. So it requires courage. But courage without discernment, <laugh> becomes recklessness.

So, you know, we need both. And I just commend you for trying to understand ‘what is mine to do’ in this milieu of being part of a larger system of faith-based media and trying to lead your show with integrity and courage and prophetic wisdom. Hats off, Melinda. That’s not an easy journey to walk.

Melinda Estabrooks: Thank you. Thanks, Wendy. I appreciate that. And then I think finally, two last things is that we’re a community that invites and notices when you’re not there. And the focus on the invitation. So you’re not there. Wait, the invitation needs to be sent to you, and then when you do come, then you hang out with us and you’re a part of it. And that’s been an interesting journey. You know, for many years I had a strong distrust towards women. I didn’t, it was, it was difficult to navigate, you know, girlfriend relationships. So I’ve worked really hard to try to figure that out and open up my circles of community for women and gatherings. And so as I’ve listened to many of them, I’ve realized that many women aren’t invited. And you know, that it was weird as a shock to me because I’m like, what do you mean you’re not invited?

Melinda Estabrooks: And they’re like, no, we don’t get invited. And that’s not just like invited to a party. It’s like invited to the conversation, for a meal for, and that’s not just single women, it’s married women. It’s all kinds of women. And so that was something that really, I’ve been kind of like, you know, I think that’s the big part of, of our community. It’s the invitation and once invited, then, you know, you’re with us. And so that’s been part of it. And then I would say a community and which is natural for me, but that celebrates and gathers. I mean, I am so much about the party and the celebration. I don’t think we celebrate enough. I could celebrate everything every day. If I could. My husband Chris would be like, “Enough”, you know, <laugh>. But there is something very spiritual and beautiful and divine connected with celebration, a meal, a party, a dance.

Melinda Estabrooks: I think that’s connected with gratitude. I think that’s connected with the invitation. I think that’s connected with being seen, heard, and loved. I think everything about a party has all the, has all the parts of, of I believe who God is <laugh> in, in everything. And so I hope our community is that we celebrate as we gather and as we gather, we celebrate. And so that’s been really a part of my heart for this community, for the show. And not only that, but also for my life. You know, I think when you do something, when you do work, my hope and dream has always been that it’s really just sort of a, I don’t know, just one, one step outside of who you actually are and what you do in your life already. And so in my life, I do lots of parties and gatherings and hangouts and all these kinds of things.

Melinda Estabrooks: And I’m just like, I can’t believe my job vocation actually allows for just expansion of that into, into a national show. And really international because of the podcast and YouTube, we have access to so many women all over the world that write to us. And so I think those are key things. I think that’s what has sort of propelled us has sustained us. I mean, we’re now 10 seasons and that’s unheard of for like a Christian women’s show in Canada. I don’t think there’s a Christian women’s show in Canada has been this long <laugh> that’s lasted this long. And so, you know, again, Wendy, I would say it is an honor for me to just steward this. I believe it really was the heart of God to say, I want Canadian voices, Canadian women’s voices to be amplified in a safe space. And I’m just like, okay, I will steward it. I will open my hands, do the hard work, very challenging, hard work, but God, I will steward it and I hope I steward it well. And in that I feel that God has really just opened up doors and opportunities for the past, like nine years, almost 10 years of this. So I feel very grateful. I feel very grateful and humbled by the responsibility and the leadership that has been given to me. But it’s also so fun. It’s really fun too.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: <Laugh>, I can’t help but think, you know, in the Return of the Prodigal Son, the parent with their arms wide open says, you know, kill the fattened calf, bring the best robe. Put a ring on his finger, sandals on his feet.   And as someone who’s been a friend of yours on social media for many years, <laugh>, I can attest to the fact that celebration really is a spiritual practice for you. It really is something that sustains your life and not only helps you to flourish, but helps so many others to flourish. As an introvert, I sometimes see your photos from the weekend or even just midweek. And I’m like, how does this girl maintain so many friendships and relationships? And yet you’re always in the middle of it with a huge smile because you truly are living into that vocation of being the one to welcome others home, to invite, to welcome and to celebrate.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And so we celebrate you Melinda, thanks for being on this episode of Love Henri, the podcast. Again, if you enjoyed our conversation but were listening and want to actually see Melinda’s smiling face, check us out on our YouTube channel, which you’ll find on our website, henrinouwen.org. And please give us a thumbs up share a, a good review. But even more importantly, if you know of someone in your life who needs some of Melinda’s infectious joy, then share it with your family, with your friends. Check out, See, Hear, Love. Again, those links will all be in the show notes. And as we leave you today, and maybe you’re mulling over some of Melinda’s story or you’re feeling like, Hey, I don’t feel very seen, I don’t feel very heard, I don’t feel very loved. We want you to leave this conversation, never, ever forgetting that the one who created the entire universe calls you Beloved. Thanks for being with us.