Discernment

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Welcome to a new episode of Henri’s bookshelf, produced by the Henri Nouwen Society. I’m Wendy VanderWal Martin, and I’m excited to have a conversation today about Henri’s book, Discernment. This was compiled by Michael Christensen and Rebecca Laird in 2013, published by Harper Collins and is part of a trilogy. The first book, Spiritual Direction, the second book, Spiritual Formation, and now the third book, Discernment: Reading The Signs of Daily Life. And today I’m delighted to have a conversation with my longtime pastor, Sam Cooper. Welcome, Sam.

Sam Cooper: Thank you.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, Sam, I always ask the first question, how did you encounter Henri Nouwen?

Sam Cooper: It came while I was a university student, and it was the Wounded Healer that I read. I know it was published in 1972. I wouldn’t have read it in 1972, but it was close to that. And I was struggling with a sense of call for myself at that time to parish ministry. I found it very helpful to help me begin to see both the culture into which I was being called to serve as well as to how that might be, to serve a culture like that. So that was the first, and today I probably have six or eight of his books on my shelf that I’ve read over years, and now delighted to have read this one for sure.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Well, and it seems like I have some work to do because both during his lifetime and then posthumously, 40 books have been published with Henri Nouwen’s spiritual wisdom, so I’ve got to get his bookshelf filled up. Christmas is coming.

Sam Cooper: Time to catch up. That’s right.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, I wanted to have this conversation with you in part because we’ve journeyed both as friends, but also being in the same community of faith for decades. Tell us how long you have been pastoring this church now, your role has shifted recently not quite retirement, but a shift. But how long have you been with the Meadowvale Community Church?

Sam Cooper: We’re in our 31st year Yes. Serving here. Very grateful to have been sent and called. A long obedience in the same direction indeed as you and I like to say.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Thank you. Eugene Peterson. Now reading the book, what were just some of the things that immediately resonated deeply with you?

Sam Cooper: I had never read anything I would say to the extent that Henri has written about discernment. I loved his conversation about a doctrine of discernment, because it has been such a important part of our ministry here, and the journey that God has had us on. So, to actually find someone who has written, now I know it was compiled, but who had been that thoughtful about discernment and to talk about different steps and protocols within the doctrine of discernment, I was absolutely intrigued. And he wrote my story.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: That’s why you’re in that chair, essentially.

Sam Cooper: He did. It was remarkable. I’m sure other people will find the same again, there’s just one spirit. Yes. So, you would expect this, but he does. He is so articulate about his experience that you can find your own experience in it. And I did. I think, again, Henri is known for his brutal self-effacing honesty, and that vulnerability was hugely represented in this book. And I found that very attractive again. I, we, you know, typically we look for, for heroes that somehow, you know, have made it. What we think in ways have conquered all of that. But Henri just lays it out, the difficulty, the struggle, the isolation, the fear. And of course, the voice of love that comes to, to undermine all of those doubts, self-doubts. But that vulnerability, I think of Henri and his honesty and how he learned what he learned.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And I love his subtitle, “Reading the Signs in Daily Life”, because discernment certainly is a gift, but it’s also a practice, and it can be learned. And you have been a pastor that has really shepherded and led a community to learn how to walk that daily consistent journey of discernment. And some of the stories that we’ll share today are amazing, astounding. We have had enough time as a community with this focus to see God connect the dots in ways that blow our mind, but that is built and formed and shaped by the daily practice of listening and obeying, listening and obeying.

Sam Cooper: And in the end, you can only say, as Isaiah does, all that we’ve accomplished, God has done for us. I just want to, to lay that down first as well.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Absolutely. Now, Henri says this to help us understand even what he means by discernment. “Discernment is a spiritual understanding and an experiential knowledge of how God is active in daily life. And it’s acquired through disciplined spiritual practice. Discernment is faithful living and listening to God’s love and direction so that we can fulfill our individual calling and shared mission.” Now, Sam, you have been someone that I have known to be deeply committed to that ongoing exercise of discernment as an individual follower of Jesus, but then also in your pastoral role. Tell us how that became such an important laser focus for you. How did you first experience the invitation to listen to God?

Sam Cooper: As long as I can remember, I’ve had that desire. It was a member of my family, an extended member of my family who was Pentecostal, which was unusual for our backgrounds. And I would hear him talk about hearing God’s voice. And I longed for that. And it wasn’t until I was just out of university that I met a small group of people who listened to God’s voice. And we began to listen together. And they were people who were so different from me. Every one of them. They were a different color, they were a different nationality. They were a different background in just about every way. But somehow God had put us together. And it reminded me of much of what Henri writes here and how important it is to have a community of people to listen, but also to be able to do that across difference. And we didn’t know that was happening then. We just knew that we were together to listen to God’s voice. And it helped that one or two of them were certainly more experienced than I was. And so, we had a book called “God Calling.” Henri talks about the importance of what you read or a spiritual reading, although Henri will say masterfully, it’s not what we read as much as being willing to be read.

Sam Cooper: So the book God Calling was like that for us. It’s a record of two listeners. You don’t even know who they are. Just two listeners. And it helped me hear God through them. And so I got a sense of what God might say to me. I got a sense of what it would sound like if God said something to me. And that’s how, and we just began to practice together. And that was for me, the beginning. And I’ve not looked back. And I realize that this, this is how I want to live. This is how I want to lead. I listen first and then act.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Sam, listeners might be wondering how does that connect to scripture? And sometimes there is some fear around, well, if it’s not in the canon of the written scriptures, you have to be super careful. So tell us a bit, I know you to be a man of the word, but tell us a bit about how scripture has been part of that for you.

Sam Cooper: Matthew 4:4 a person will not live by bread alone, but by every word. Now, the translation is important, present, active indicative that keeps pouring out the mouth of God. So to me, that’s an invitation. God hasn’t just spoken once and we wrote it down, no, we will live by the words that keep pouring out of the mouth of God. So that to me was foundational. That really helped me. John 10, His sheep hear his voice. I’m his sheep. I’m a shepherd. I’m going to need to hear his voice if I’m going to help others hear his voice, and if I’m going to shepherd others, that’s really significant. I think that the Genesis story where Abraham, Adam and Eve hear God’s voice after the fall. So it’s, it can’t be about that I’ve earned this. Right. It can’t. And, so that was always encouraging to me too, even after the fall, they hear God so clearly and communicate with him. I think Psalm 139 is, is really important too. God knows us so well that he knows how best to speak to us. And so for me, it’s words, but sometimes it’s pictures and dreams, often dreams too. I have a friend who says, when God speaks to me, he has to talk really loud, otherwise he won’t get my attention. And I, if God’s yelled at me, that would be hard. So God knows us. He knows who we are. He knows how we will hear him best. And I think that’s what I’ve tried to teach my folks here.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, you alluded to earlier, but Henri sort of categorizes four areas in which we can be helped in our journey with the Holy Spirit and in discernment, and this is what he says, “Divine guidance can be found in the books we read, the nature we enjoy, the people we meet, and the events we experience.” Now, we’re going to walk through each of those, but let’s start with books. When you think about, I mean, you’ve already spoken about God Calling and probably that’s 40 years ago, I’m guessing. That was so formational. When we think about this community of faith, what along the journey, what are some of the books that just really seismically shifted our discernment of where God was taking us?

Sam Cooper: Baxter Kruger’s, work for sure. The Parable of the Dancing God, The Undoing of Adam, and a number of his other work has been probably the beginning of a huge theological shift for us here. Paul Young’s work, The Shack, The Lies We Believe about God. And then Baxter’s work based on The Shack that the Shack Revisited was theologically very important again to try to navigate what Young was telling us. Work by Roger and Sue Mitchell, particularly his work around the church and empire, Church, Gospel and Empire. Just the roots of Christendom being so connected to Empire. And we’ve been, I mean, that was, you know, 20 years ago, and we’re still deconstructing that. And we’re as many. Brad Jersak most recently, A More Christ-Like God. I mean, I would say those are the main ones.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Well, what’s very interesting in this community’s journey is that those books actually then also connect to people we meet, because these particular authors came and taught within this community of faith, but they didn’t just teach, they developed a relationship and they became friends. And there was both a sense of eldership that they were leading us, in God’s time and in season, but also they were very open to what God was doing in our midst. So there was a beautiful mutuality that I think also led us in the journey of discernment about, “How do we undo power structures that put some above others?” and so on. But tell us about that, what that’s meant for you as a pastor, to have folks like that build friendship here.

Sam Cooper: Well, it, it does remind me of the people that Nouwen – came into Nouwen’s life, both personally and by things he read. So, of course, Merton, Thomas Merton, Mother Teresa, he names, and others. And I thought it was interesting that you could both read what those individuals were writing, but you could also be in relationship. And Henri was, and, and in the same way that we had the wonderful opportunity to be in relationship with these people. So, I think it’s, I think it’s the friendship that’s been… and the realization that these are people like us who are struggling to work through hearing God’s voice and, and trying to make sense of that in our day. Roger Mitchell taught us research first, then, I’m sorry, revelation first, then research.

Sam Cooper: And so those kinds of nuggets of truth have been so helpful to us in shaping us. But to know that those, that there are, that they’re not just people who have often books, but people who are friends and who look for opportunities to be engaged with us has been remarkable. So, like Henri, we recognize that this discernment process cannot be done in isolation or as an individual, you meet each other.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And some of these friends, Roger and Sue Mitchell are from the UK. Others are from the United States. This particular congregation is in Mississauga in Canada. And so I think that connection of what God is doing in the world, when we have these friendships over decades, journeying decades together, I think the seeds get sown really deeply. And there’s enough time that you see fruitfulness too.

Sam Cooper: And may I just say that it’s not, I don’t know that it’s just this congregation that’s been attractive to them as much as the land, because there’s something in the land. I know Sue Mitchell, when she first came, said, don’t miss it. It’s an auger. Don’t miss it. Auger, sign in the UK. So don’t miss. It’s a sign. And so, they’ve somehow found both in us and in this place, a freedom that they don’t find in many places.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, tell us a bit more about that, because one of the other categories that Henri speaks about is the nature in which we find ourselves, the land, the trees, the, you know, this little church building is next to a lake. Tell us how we’ve grown in understanding what that means. That the land we’re on is a sign.

Sam Cooper: In our faith tradition, and I’m sure in many, but in ours, it was clear that creation is the first revelation, first book of God’s self-revelation. And so, while we knew that, it’s taken us some time to actually take our shoes off and our socks, and to actually walk and be on the land in a way that is reciprocal in that, that we are here together, that the land has called us. I think I’m in, I think I’m here in this place. I trust others will have the same experience. That somehow the land called them to be here. That our gifts and our calling that I think the land calls the people that it needs in order for it to fulfill its own calling. So we’ve .. I remember early on when, when we first had a sense of calling to care for the lake that you mentioned, and we organized a little group called The Friends of Lake Wabakane, and it included some community folks. And we would meet here in the church basement, and we would plot and plan how we were going to plant trees or pull plants out that were invasive. And we’re still doing that to this day. But we were already looking for signs then. In our life and in surround in our surroundings that said, yes, this is a good thing. Keep doing this. Keep pulling the bicycles that you find, the-

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Shopping carts.

Sam Cooper: The shopping carts, the trash, you know, keep pulling that out of the lake. And we had organized the Friends of Lake Wabakane, and we had organized some of those events for the communities, keep clean it cleanups. And before we knew it, we heard the city had planned to do some dredging, that they too recognized that this lake needed their attention. And all that time while we were hearing the spirit say, care for the lake, care for the lake, along comes the city. Say, we need to do more with this lake. And some dredging began. And this is called the jewel of Meadowvale We have 200 species of birds that travel through here during spring and fall migration. So we’ve learned a lot about the lake, we’ve learned about its creatures, and, and we do feel responsible or responsive to God’s invitation to care for what he’s made. Right. Right here.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, I remember a summer where we spent, if I’m remembering right, because it’s some years ago where we spent every Sunday, I think going around the lake, there’s this walking path around it. And that was our Sunday service. Tell us about how did you perceive, discern that assignment for us as a congregation? Some people would say, wow, that’s breaking tradition. That’s literally out there. And we as a people didn’t always know what God was asking of us. So we learned to listen, and we tried to learn to obey. But tell us more about that process.

Sam Cooper: I think it in part comes from a deep in our bones, understanding that the church is about what’s happening beyond its walls, that we are an organization or institution that meets for the benefit of members who are not its own. So we are here to serve the city. And sometimes you just have to get out from the building to be reminded of that. Because there’s a walking path here. And Sunday is a popular day for walks…. lots and lots of dogs. And so some of it was just to be out in the presence of our community. And some of it was to be seen. I remember we would deliberately do some games and other things outside, because there was a sense that God wanted people to know, well, that looks like fun. These people have fun together. They do. So some of it was that some of it was exposure both for the community and for ourselves. But inevitably there were very particular places that we would go. I know that there’s a well, that’s located not far from here. That was part of the original Cook’s farm, family farm. And of course, wells have a lot of significance in scripture. So I remember one time in particular standing there and teaching about that, using that as a physical example.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, one of the things you’ve kind of alluded to a few times is history. The history of a place. So when Roger, for instance, taught us Revelation first, then research, some of that research is related to what has happened in the past. And how are we as God’s people in this place attentive to history? What have been some of the historical things that we here as a community of faith have been called to do, our best to respond to.

Sam Cooper: Some of your listeners may be aware of the outpouring of 1994 that began here, that what was called the Toronto Blessing. Let me tell you, it was the Mississauga blessing was in Mississauga that this fell. And we learned, because research follows revelation. There’s this huge uncovering of the heart. The heart of love of God for people happening. And we learned that there was an outpouring of God’s spirit here in 1826 among the Mississaugas of the Credit First Nation.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: First Nations.

Sam Cooper: So the well that we just spoke about was actually opened up here on the banks of the Credit River, started in a tent meeting on the Burlington Heights. And someone from the Mississauga’s named Peter Jones was there, was converted brought the good news. Now we say the good news it’s mixed here. Right. The gospel extraordinarily mixed with control and domination. And so now let, let’s just want to be, be clear that we need to be very careful about how we talk about the gospel coming into a native community. But nevertheless, it was the history and the things that were happening in that revival in 1826 were the very things that we were seeing in 1994, the experiences that people were having of God’s Spirit and repentance, the crying out, the laughing, the falling down, all recorded already in the notes of Peter Jones. And that just awakened us to the fact that there were Indigenous people here, and that our city was named after them. And, well, were they still alive? And were they still here? And we learned that they were.

Sam Cooper: We learned that there were still indigenous people here. They were still present. There were still Christians among them. And we began a relationship that has now been more than 20 years. Well, along the way, we learned about the offenses that as colonists, settlers, we participated in. And in 2001, we invited the Mississaugas to come here and allow us to repent. And we did. And they forgave us and released us, and we had a meal together. This was not just our congregation. This was many denominations in the city. We had worked hard to make this as corporate as we could, as the body of Christ to do this. And we’ve been learning ever since. And we’ve been growing in our relationship with them. We think that we need to put, to make substantial this active reconciliation.

Sam Cooper: We need to really substantiate now with friendship. And so we’ll go to their powwows, we’ll participate in their historical heritage’s heritage days, and we keep inviting them here. So we’ve had their storytellers, their drummers on a Sunday morning. We’ve just opened the service to them to learn about what the Creator has taught them. And what would it have been like if we brought the gospel that we brought, said, “This is what we’ve learned about God. What did you learn? What have you learned?” And how different that would’ve been here in Canada and other places, of course. So that’s, it’s been a rich part of, of what God has opened up for us here for sure.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: I’m also just reminded when, when I think about nature, that we had so many a assignments from God, from little things to bigger things. But I remember seeds coming into the service, and there was a map of the city, and there was soil. I mean, who does that in a Sunday morning service? Now, partly there’s creativity that’s alive and well in this place, but it’s connected to listening. It’s connected to very particular assignments, not just let’s do something cool and innovative in our service. But tell us about the planting of the seeds.

Sam Cooper: I mean, scripture is, is full of references to seeds. I mean, Jesus was always talking about, and Henri makes that point in his book beautifully about that, that kind of a revelation for him. It was like, oh, Jesus, I don’t walk, I don’t get outside. Henri writes this. And then realizing how, how antithetical that was to the experience of Jesus who was always outside, always walking, always, you know, using those images in his teaching. So I think naturally the spirit of Jesus would lead followers of Jesus to do similar things. So we have, for the sake of the city, said, we want to sow the fruit of the Spirit here. We want to see love and joy and peace, and patience, and kindness and goodness and faithfulness and self-control, not just in the body of Christ. We want to see that in our neighbors and in our city.

Sam Cooper: So we’re going to plant these seeds on a map of the city with dirt from the land of the city. And as a prophetic act to say, God, we know that this is your heart for us and for our neighbors. So please do it. 60, 30, 60 90 and a hundred fold. Often we’ve planted things in anticipation of what we look for God to do. And sometimes there’s some uprooting that needs to be done, too. So both of those often will go hand in hand. So the confession of sin, the repentance is often part of the preparation for the ground that then allows you to do some of that for the Spirit to do some of that planting in us.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Now, a very traditional way that the church brings nature into its very building and into its services are things like Christmas trees. But we have done some interesting things with Christmas trees over the years.

Sam Cooper: In terms of Christmas trees, I, I think that the most famous, or the most infamous that may be what you’re asking and getting to was one of the things the Holy Spirit asked us to do was to not to follow, he was trying to teach us to be more attentive to his voice. And so he, he asked us to turn the liturgical calendar upside down, and he wanted us from season to season to listen to him about what season it was.

Sam Cooper: So advent, the beginning of the church. Reformation Day, the begins the church here historically. We were told that that was to be our Lent, and that Christmas would be Easter. And that for us in that season, Easter would be Christmas. Easter day would be Christmas day. So what do you do with Christmas when it’s really Lent and coming to Easter? And so we turned our Christmas tree upside down, and apparently this happens in Europe. We’re not the only ones who do this. I imagine we’ve done it for a different reason. But we actually turned the Christmas tree upside down and hung it from the ceiling and created and made the sign of the cross within the tree itself. But the roots of the tree were still present. We had attached those roots to this Christmas tree, and it had the lights on, and I think below it maybe was a pile of Christmas ornaments, because Jesus, in his kenotic love empties control and power out of us and out of systems. And even out of our celebrations that have gotten out of hand. And it was a huge year of learning for us. It began with an upside down Christmas tree.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And I think it’s a story that demonstrates that sometimes discernment leads us into slightly disorienting experiences. That when things are very predictable perhaps we become numb or less alert. And discernment is about being attuned and alert and awake. The other thing I think is important about communal discernment and has been so important for our community of faith, is that there is freedom and permission. And so for instance, the year that the liturgical year was flipped upside down, there were some families who really lived that fully. So they really did their family Christmas at Easter and Easter at Christmas time. And there were other families who sort of experienced this with the church community, but did so differently in their home environment. And it’s always that sense of permission and consent to participate. You are being invited into this assignment that God has given us as a community. And I think that’s important because discernment is in step with the Spirit, and she is not a bulldozer. The Spirit is invitational. And so some who maybe thought, “I don’t know about this”, there was no compulsion. It was an invitation. And as you said, I don’t know how many years ago it was, but more than 10. And it still kind of comes up in conversation amongst our community because it was such a rich learning time. And part of that learning came out of being a little disoriented.

Sam Cooper: Thank you for reminding us about how much freedom there is in God. And we’ve tried to extend that freedom to each other in these times because discernment is discerning. I mean, just because I said it doesn’t, and I’m the pastor, doesn’t mean that there aren’t things to be worked through or worked out or challenged or confronted in what one hears. And so that’s where the community is really essential. Because as a shepherd, I will hear and expect to hear things that will direct the body, but inevitably what I’ve heard at the beginning and how it ends up either being taught or practiced, can often be significantly different than I had imagined. Because the community becomes involved and engaged, and people hear what you’ve heard, but hear it in ways that the Holy Spirit means for them to hear. And then we get a richer understanding about what God has said.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: And as a community, there was a process. And so there was submission to elders. There was a testing of the spirit, there was a posture that said, “We could be wrong”. We might be wrong about this. One of my favorite Henri quotes is, “Fear-filled questions never lead to love-filled answers.” And so it wasn’t about being fearful that we would be wrong, it was trusting that with love, God’s going to take us to where we need to be.

Now, we’ve talked about people we meet, books we read, nature we encounter. Henri lists a fourth one, and that’s events. And there are some really significant things that God has done in our midst as we’ve tried to be willing to be responsive to key events in our city. What are some stories that come to mind?

Sam Cooper: Yes, because we understand that we are here to be a blessing to all the families of Mississauga, because I’m a pastor to the city of Mississauga and not just to this congregation. We are listening to the news. We’re reading the Mississauga News. We’re reading and listening to local and national news, of course, reading the newspaper along the side of scripture. But recently we’ve had three murders in our very suburban Mississauga community, all within walking distance of our church building. And whenever there’s violence, we’ve always been quite attentive to that, to say, “God, is there something we can step into here that will extinguish the tide of the fear that this violence has, initiated again?”

Sam Cooper: And that’s true, of course, with murder. And most excessively with that. And so we, on each of those occasions, Sunday morning, we would gather after we had heard that news. And we’d say, “God, how can we participate with you in being a blessing to this community now in this devastating situation?” And we’ll … sometimes the Spirit will say take chalk and write words, good words at the site. We’ve been given instructions to take flour, the flour that you would make bread with, flour according to 11 King’s 4, where the prophet put flour into the poisonous pot of stew, and it was made well. And we’ve even taken the Lord’s Supper to these locations. In fact, the one that is closest here. We took the Lord’s Supper and we sowed it into the ground there and said, “Christ, if you didn’t die for this, to redeem and to restore this….”

Sam Cooper: And every time we invite the congregation to participate. Now, because the one was right across from the parking lot, we actually just went as a congregation and stood there together. The others were a bit farther away. So we would ask for volunteers, and we would say, “We’re going to ask the Spirit now, who among us should go and represent the church there? So Holy Spirit am I to go yes or no?” That was the simple question. And people would hear yes or no. And it was always marvelous to see who heard yes. And who heard no. The ones you thought might say, oh, yes, I’ll go for, no, they’re not there. Children, young people, young adults, seniors. So we’ve learned to trust the Spirit when it comes to those kinds of assignments, that God is going to send just the right people to those locations to do just the right thing.

Sam Cooper: So that, that was the most recent, those were the most recent experiences that we’ve had together as a congregation. There was a period of time when we had overnight worship because we have a strong sense that we are an intercessory congregation that uses worship in particular, as a means to intercede for the world and for our neighborhoods and communities. And after an overnight worship, we would gather together. It was, there was always something energetic and charged about a Sunday morning when you knew people were here from eight o’clock in the evening all the way through, and who were, I mean, God’s always present, but we just had a special sense. The artists were painting, the bakers were making bread. There was singing that had been going on. The prayers were praying. I mean, it was very much all the gifts were activated. So then that Sunday morning, the question was always, “God, what’s on your heart today?” So we would, we would come without a liturgy. We would come with, I would not prepare a message, but we would, we would be very deliberate and sincere to say, “God, what’s on your heart?” And I mean, many times he would answer us with things that were totally unexpected. One of those times was I was here early, maybe I would not stay the whole night because I knew anyway, to feel like I was awake enough to be listening and following in the morning. But I heard the word Yemen. What is on your heart? Yemen. Yemen. Remember revelation first and then research. And so we didn’t even know what to do with that. But we learned it was the largest humanitarian crisis in the world, and is probably still next to Gaza now. A Civil War that’s lasted more than seven years.

Sam Cooper: You know, civil War. Imagine that. A nation torn apart within itself by its own people. So we began to learn about Yemen and pray for Yemen. Two weeks later, we, we learned, again, these are the signs along the way that Nouwen speaks about of daily life, there were protests that were going on in Hamilton, Ontario, which is near, and there were protests in front of a …. who knew that Canada was producing arms, particularly vehicles at this point that would be used in the military service in the Middle East and now in Yemen? And it was in the news that people were standing in front of trucks as they were trying to move out with this equipment. And we learned that Canada is only second to the United States in sending out military hardware to these places in the world. And it was just, we were flabbergasted to learn that. And then two weeks after that, a colleague of mine who had worked in our denomination around justice issues, called me to say that she had a gentleman and his disabled daughter who were just new to Canada. Could we help them? Could we, they were looking for an apartment. They couldn’t afford an apartment. There was obviously home to supply. And so would we, would we be able to help?

Sam Cooper: And as she told us his story, she told us he was from Yemen. And in the end, we were able to support him and his daughter, and eventually then his family to fly them over from Egypt, where they got out of Yemen to Cairo. And so you don’t know what’s going to unfold. No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has begun to imagine the things that God has planned. So, but you won’t know unless you’re listening and discerning.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Listening, discerning, and then obeying and acting. Yes. Henri said this, “Living a spiritually mature life requires listening to God’s voice within and among us. The great news of God’s revelation is not simply that I am, but also that God is actively present in the moments of our lives at all times and places. Our God is a God who cares, heals, guides, directs, challenges, confronts, corrects. To discern means, first of all, to listen to God, to pay attention to God’s active presence and to obey God’s prompting direction, leadings and guidance.”

Wendy VanderWal Martin: So we, as a congregation feel deeply called to be a blessing to the city. What are some of the ways that we’ve been asked to be a healing presence, to be a directing presence, to be agents of change in our city?

Sam Cooper: Two weeks ago, we opened a brand new facility here in our community that is permanent supportive housing for some of the most marginalized in our community. Now, how we got there began out of our worship times, because that spilled out into the community. And we felt that there were places in our city that we needed to just be to worship and to pray.

Sam Cooper:
One of those places began to attract people who were in the neighborhood, and people who needed some food, needed toiletries. And so not only then were we worshiping and praying for people, we were also providing for their physical needs. And that got us to wondering, where are those folks coming from and why aren’t they getting? And, we learned that a few blocks away, it was a retirement, what was called a retirement home. That was not a retirement home at all. It was a warehouse for mostly mentally ill people who could be housed. And very, very dingy, dark, dirty place of home that was converted almost entirely into bedrooms. And we felt then that the Spirit was telling us that we needed to be there in embodied ways. And so we began to relate to the owner and to get to know him. We asked if we could help clean.

Sam Cooper: We asked if we could paint. We asked if we could bring gifts on holidays. And we did. And so over time, developed this relationship with a number of the people in the home as well. And it got us to the point of saying, “We’re not happy with this. Yes, this might be radical hospitality to some, but this can’t be how we allow people to live. In fact, we’ve already pushed them to the margins. Now we’re simply going to leave places like this?” So we began to investigate in our city what would be available to people for a change. And we found that, in our desperation, we were asking around and learned through a chaplain at Credit Valley Hospital, our community hospital here, there was in fact a group of people who were beginning to build homes for people like this.

Sam Cooper: And so we invited them into Mississauga. And they said, that’s interesting, we’ve been praying about coming into Mississauga.” So our congregation and two others met with them, and they said, “Well, we’re not sure there’s a problem here for affordable housing. Would you do a survey? Would you do an assessment?” And so we did with them do that. And they were a costly feasibility study. Exactly, yes. Over many months. And they were able then to have proof that they should come and do. And so we’re now over a hundred apartment units built with the cooperation of the community of faith and Indwell and all three levels of government and many, many community partners. That was 10 years ago.

Sam Cooper: And this last week we opened a brand new facility that incorporates that original home that I described to you that they honored as a historical home in that community of Meadowvale and another one nearby that he also owned. And they connected those two, refurbished those homes and connected them with a gorgeous building that fits so beautifully into that community. And now there’ll be 40 people there who need extensive support. Medical support, social work support but indwell, I mean, that all happened because the little worship community, it happened because the Spirit told us we needed to be involved there. And it happened because God connected a larger community of people who were trying to do something about affordable housing with us. Indwell honored those 17 people in that home. They bought that property such a surprise to us. I mean, God, I mean, God is just so amazing. They bought the property, they cared for those 17 people until they could be housed in one of their newer buildings. And now, when we opened it up on Thursday and cut the ribbon, more than 200 people there from every level of government recognizing the hope that these kinds of homes provide for people. And it was, and it all began with worship and listening to the Spirit and pursuing justice.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: We’ve all heard the saying, right? Give somebody a fish and they eat for a day, teach them to fish… but even teaching them to fish, if the water’s polluted and nothing can live there, then teaching them to fish does nothing. And so some people take that further and they say, well, actually, it’s about cleaning up the lake and stocking the pond so that the systems themselves are redeemed. And we might think about that being overseas somewhere. And yet, through the decade long journey of listening and obeying, listening and obeying to each step as it matured and evolved, real systemic change has come to that neighborhood. The specificity of the gift and the practice, the work of discernment in being a blessing to your city, I think is…. Henri always talked about, “Don’t focus on being productive, focus on being fruitful.” And if that isn’t bearing fruit in your neighborhood, you know, I don’t know what is. And it’s because God says, “Participate with me in the work of making things right.” And we say, who us? We’re so messed up. Henri said, I’m so messed up. And, and that’s this mysterious condescension of God to partner with us, as we stumble along, trying to listen well and take the risks to know when to obey.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Henri said, “When Christian community provides sacred space and times for discernment, we will gradually be lifted up into God’s dwelling place and come to see ourselves, our neighbors, and our world in a new light. This seeing does not require intellectual knowledge, articulated insight, or a concrete opinion. No. It is a sharing in the knowledge of God’s heart, a deeper wisdom, a new way of living and loving.”

Having had the unique opportunity of journeying with the same community for three decades means that you have kind of been along as the congregation has received new light. You know, a community of faith is never meant to be a stagnant, same old, same old. So what is some of the new light that has come through this long journey of discernment?

Sam Cooper: The new light of again, for us more recently, although there’s been a long history of this work among us around inclusion and recognizing that again, across all difference, but particularly the difference around gender and sexuality. But that’s been a 20 year journey for us to learn. I think what Peter was intended to learn when that sheet came down, that you are not to call anyone an unclean.

Sam Cooper: And we have, I love Henri’s honesty when he said, “There’ve been times when I haven’t been able to tell… when I’ve tried to discern who are good people and who are evil.” And that’s in us to do. Love that honesty. So new light, particularly around those issues about gender and sexuality. And so I can say today after, 20 years of study and hearing people’s stories, the stories of the gay community, people who God has lovingly sent to us who were gifts, and we weren’t always gifts to them.

Sam Cooper: So I can say that we’ve celebrated gay marriage here.

Wendy VanderWal Martin:
And the discernment around new light, I think, again, it’s important to say this isn’t about contributing to polarity or division. It’s humbly listening and doing our best to obey. And that obedience then becomes costly.

Sam Cooper: We are doing what we feel God is calling us to do, and to be who God is calling us to be. And we’ve known for decades that we were to be a place that was, that was multicultural and multi-ethnic. And we just hadn’t gone far enough in that. But we knew that’s who we were being called to be. And so you do, you do look for those gifts that are going to help you help get you there. You look for those signs along the way. How are we doing? Are we, are we managing that here? And,

Wendy VanderWal Martin: That sign of seeds, again, it just springs to my mind. I remember one of the earliest years that our family was here, we sang a lot. We will break dividing walls. So we would always clap really hard on the, you know, on the downbeat or whatever it is a musician would say. And, and this sense that, that you’re sowing a seed in the spirit, that you don’t fully understand what that means. And 30 years later, one of the things that means for this particular community, faith in this particular place, is that there won’t be a dividing wall between lgbtq twos plus folks and the invitation to participate with God in the work of making things right in Mississauga.

But did we have any inkling of that when we were singing that? I mean, we maybe thought about that around race maybe, or dividing walls between rich and poor.

Sam Cooper: Denominations. I mean, that’s kind of how it began as we imagined it. That was out of that song comes out of the outpouring of 1994. So yes, it was like that. But no, you’re absolutely right. And the genius of God…to do that, I think to prepare us for all of those walls coming down.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Which I’m just realizing that I pulled these quotes, some time ago. But it seems to fit, Henri said, “The Spirit of God in us recognizes God in the world. The eyes and ears by which we see God in others, in fact, spiritual sensitivities that allow us to receive our neighbors as messengers of God.” We’ve welcomed a lot of neighbors, of all kinds of difference. And God isn’t finished with us yet in this place.

Sam Cooper: We had a Chinese couple come in Sunday morning. They had just moved into the community, had been baptized not so long ago, actually in another congregation, but had moved out of that parish, out of that community and moved into ours. And so here’s a young couple, the 2-year-old son…. with this commitment to being part of a community in their community. He didn’t speak English. We were using Google translator. She, her English was quite good. And I was introducing them to some of the children who were with me because I was with the children at the church. And one of them, one of our children stepped away and came back with a red flag. And truly, I don’t know where that flag came from. We have flags in the church and worship flags that, but this was long and it was more of a pennant. And she just was walking in front of us back and forth with this red flag. And I, and I turned to Yang Wing and I said, “What does that remind you of? What do you see?” Ah, my home, my country. Here’s a child sensitive enough, didn’t know what she was doing, more than likely, but sensitive enough to God’s spirit to pick this up. I know Brielle, and I know she hears from Jesus, and I know that she follows him. And so I’m not, I wasn’t surprised that it was her that would come and carry that flag. And it was a beautiful welcome to this young couple, to our congregation for the first time.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Yes. Henri talked about books and people and nature and events, but that wasn’t meant to be an exhaustive list. And so we’ve talked about art, we’ve talked about children, we’ve talked about dreams. So many ways in which God is always speaking. The words continuing to proceed….

Sam Cooper: Henri was writing out of his own context, right. Not of his own experience, which would’ve been much narrower, to some degree, although as a university professor. But I think it’s a good word to remind us all that it’s where we are. It’s in the circumstances and the context that we have, that God will speak and lead and guide and direct and expect obedience. But he will always provide signs of confirmation. That’s been huge for our community. We don’t receive a word, as you’ve said, without submitting it to each other, without testing it according to the word of God, without finding confirmation both in the word and in the world. So, we’ll, look for you know, the word about Yemen, I mean, and then to find those signs in the world that would’ve, that, that that couldn’t have happened…. I mean, we wouldn’t have had eyes to see or ears to hear about Yemen. I mean, those things would’ve happened in the, but we wouldn’t have been able to say, ah, God said that. So we’ve become a community that not only listens and obeys when we’re sure that God is speaking to us, but a community that’s attentive to those signs in daily life, however they come to us, whether it’s a newspaper article.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: So God had a lot of assignments for us. He really wanted to teach us something over a long obedience in the same direction. I’m thinking of the person who’s listening and, and maybe some of these stories are, are quite different from their experience of church, or maybe a pastor, or a priest is listening and saying, “Oh, you know, where would I even begin with my congregation that does things a certain way?” Or for the person who just says, “I’ve longed to hear God’s voice, and I I just never hear anything.” What would you say, Sam? Just to encourage and help people realize that, you know, these are amazing stories, but that took place over 30 years.

Sam Cooper: The voice of love that Nouwen speaks about so eloquently, so beautifully is real. And we are his beloved. And what lover doesn’t want their, the one they love to hear? So I think we’re hearing it all the time. I think all of us, all of us are hearing it all the time. And it does take attentiveness. And I mean, if you read, when you read Discernment, you’ll see how intentional it is for Nouwen to listen. And that’s important. But not all of us have an hour a day because we’ve got families and we’ve got jobs and we’ve got other vocations that keep us from doing that. And so that can feel off-putting. It can feel like that’s out of reach for us. But we have the mind of Christ.

Sam Cooper: If we have the mind of Christ, then we have his thoughts and we have his voice in us already. John said, “You don’t need anyone to teach you. The spirit of truth is already inside.” So I think I to counter all the lies that would keep us from thinking, “Oh, I’m not worthy enough. I’m not good enough.” God to me, why would God talk to me for all the reasons we just said? Because you are his beloved. And because he made you and how you’ll best hear him. So, read God Calling. Find those books that help you. Brad Jersak’s is a wonderful book. I’m hearing God’s voice. There’s all kinds of good resources there. And get with a community of people. Find someone else who longs to hear his voice too, and begin to just sit in his presence because, well, his presence is always, therapeutic. Even if you don’t hear anything. And often we would say, Wendy, we’re just going to be quiet with God. Not to hear something. Not to get a direction on assignment, just to be in his presence. That’s a great start. And in God Calling, there’s a little section that that says, that tells about Jesus, who would come to an enormous crowd. There were people there that wanted to be fed by him, that wanted to be healed by him, that wanted to be taught by him. And God Calling says that the heart of Jesus was looking for the one in that crowd. I just wanted, I just wanted to, to be with him. And of course, Mark says the gospel, Mark says that it was Jesus who wanted to be with them… come apart, to be with his disciples. He’s with us. His words are going out all the time, whether it’s in the creation or in our spirits, or in his written word. So keep pressing in, keep looking and listening, and you won’t be disappointed.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: Certainly at the Henri Nouwen Society, we believe that Henri was filled with the Spirit of God. And that his books can be one of the ways you begin to hear God’s voice. And so pick up Henri’s book or other books of Henri and let these words from Henri as well linger in your spirit.

Sam Cooper: We are going to give Henri the last word. May I say one more thing? At the end of every chapter, important book at the end of every chapter are deeper exercises for deeper discernment. Every one has been so beautifully written, so carefully articulated in connection with the chapter that you’ll be able to practice exactly the things that Henri’s speaking about and that you’ll hear about.

Wendy VanderWal Martin: “When we remember God, we are touching the divine nature with our very souls. For God knows us from eternity to eternity, has loved us with an unconditional love, and has carved us on the palms of his hands through the spiritual practice of learning to be aware and expectant. We remember God as love and ourselves as God’s beloved.”

Thank you, Sam and thank you listeners, and never, ever forget you are God’s beloved.